Mark Goulston, psychiatrist, author, podcaster, coach


This is a transcript taken from my talk with Mark Goulston....

Nigel Rawlins: I am very honored to be speaking with Mark Goulston, while he didn't know who I was, he took a chance and said yes to my interview. I'll be honest. I'm still learning the ropes of podcasting. And the first interview didn't record. Mark graciously gave me another chance. And this is the result.You will also hear that mark offers me some assistance in procrastinating, at the end of our conversation, something I really should have taken up. It has taken me a bit longer than I thought to edit this podcast. My apologies to Mark for the delay. I hope you enjoy this conversation.

Welcome mark to the Wisepreneurs podcast. And I want to make an important point is that you're the first man that I'm actually speaking to. Most of my previous guests have been women and there will be more men that I'll interview, but you're the first and probably one of the most important because of, your topic, which is about listening. Not what we'd normally think about listening. but I'd like to get you to introduce yourself, a little bit about your career and what's taken you to this point where, through your podcasts, which I absolutely adore and listen to a lot. have taught me so much more about listening compared to what I thought was a good listener and I think you've taught me that, there's a whole new side to it that most of us are unaware about. So could you tell us about, how you came to that point?

I was originally trained as a psychiatrist. And early on, I specialized in helping people who felt suicidal. And one of my early mentors was a fellow named Dr. Ed Shneidman. And if you look up Ed Shneidman S H N E I D M A N, you'll see that he was one of the pioneers in suicide prevention and he was a professor at UCLA when I was there. And then I finished my training there and he was an early mentor and he would refer me people who were still suicidal, but had to be discharged from the inpatient ward.

Mark Goulston: So they weren't acutely suicidal, but you can't keep someone in a hospital forever just because they're having suicidal thoughts. and, some of the residents who were in training and this was after my training, were uncomfortable, seeing them outside the hospitals. So he would go up to a consultation. And he would be in the room with them and he would page me and I'd get on the phone and it would always be the same introduction. He'd say, Mark, this is Ed I'm with this handsome young man, I'm with this lovely young woman, they're in a lot of pain mark, you could help them, see them. And then I get on the phone and then you can make arrangements for them to be discharged.

Now, one of the things that was a great, good fortune, from a misfortune, is at the end of my training, I was going to go into a fellowship, but it got canceled. So I decided, I'll just go out and see if anybody, comes to my office, wants to see me. And why that was good fortune for me is that, is it enabled me to really listen to my patients without having to be imprisoned by checking boxes.

Which an institution would have required of me. And that didn't mean that I was a rogue psychiatrist. It just meant that I was able to tune into my patients. And one of the things that I noticed with suicidal patients is increasingly I, when I'd look into their eyes, just as I'm looking into your eyes, is they'd have a look that said, you're checking boxes and I'm running out of time.

They didn't say in their words, but I could see it in their eyes. And it was such a strong pull. It was almost like a drowning person reaching out with their eyes. And it was so strong that I had to make a choice to keep checking boxes or grab on to their eyes and see what their eyes took me and where their eyes took me was into the pain inside.

And something that I realized is that when someone is deeply depressed, To the point of feeling suicidal, then you give them suggestions and advice and treatments. And for some reason, other it's not working, what they're really saying to you is you have to come to me. I can't make it to you. And I have a number of stories and I'm not sure how many I'll be able to share, but there was a couple of stories that really shaped the way I listened into people's eyes. One of them had to do with a man who was an early aids patient. I'm not even sure the diagnosis of aids had been made, but I was paged by his doctors, to do a consultation and to approve to his having his arms and legs restrained because he was pulling at his IVs. He was pulling at the respirator, that he was connected to, and he was just, kicking all over the place. So the doctors had paged me to okay an order that he be restrained and be given a major tranquilizer. And when I went into his room, his eyes were like saucer shaped, and he couldn't speak because he had, he was on a respirator and he kept going, ah, ahh, ah, and I said, what is it?

And you just kept going ahh ahh and he kept looking at me with those eyes. And then I put a pencil in his hand and I said, what is it? Write it. And he scribbled and, and I couldn't make it out. And what the doctors had said is look he's psychotic. he's just, hallucinating. And I finally agreed with them and I told him we had to put your arms and legs down because you were pulling at the IVs. You were pulling at the respirator, you were kicking and I'm giving you something to calm you down, when you calm down we'll take everything off. So a day later I get paged by the doctors and they said, Mr. Jones, told us to page you. So I go into his room and he's seated. He's off the respirator. He's seated up in his bed and he looks at me and with his eyes, he grabs onto my eyes and he says, pull up a chair. And then he looked at my eyes, into my eyes, held onto my eyes, and he seated me in this chair with his eyes. And he said, what I was trying to tell you is that a piece of the respirator tube had broken off and was stuck in my throat.

And you do know that I will kill myself before I go through that again. Do you understand me? And my eyes teared up with just the horror of that and having participated in that and I said, I'm sorry. I understand. So that gave me a dramatic lesson about listening into people's eyes and then I'll share another anecdote with a woman that I'll call Nancy. So Dr. Shneidman had referred this woman named Nancy who had , made several suicide attempts, in the previous years and had been in the hospital one or two months every year, a couple of times a year before I started seeing her. And I didn't think I was helping her at all..

She came in. I think we actually met two or three times a week. And you could do that back then, but I didn't think I was helping her and Nancy rarely made eye contact. She wasn't exactly catatonic, but she just never looked me in the eye. And one Monday I saw her and I'd just finished moonlighting at a psychiatric state hospital. Moonlighting means I covered for the other psychiatrist and admitted patients to the hospital and went on, I did consults to the inpatient units if someone was acting up. So I was sleep deprived and there was Nancy not looking at my eyes at all. And my thinking, I'm not sure if I'm helping her. And when I sat down with her, all the color in the room turned to black and white. So I'm looking out in the room and it's black and white. And then I got the chills. I'm probably giving some of you the chills right now. And I thought I was having a stroke or a seizure. And so I did a neurologic exam on myself. I'm a psychiatrist, I'm an MD. I went to medical school. So I know a little bit about other specialties.

And there I am tapping my knees, looking at my fingers, seeing if I'm seeing double. And it wasn't rude because she wasn't looking. And then I had this crazy idea because I was sleep deprived and I had this idea that I was somehow looking out at the world through her eyes, feeling those feelings as she was looking into space.

And because I was sleep deprived, I blurted something up that I wouldn't have said if I wasn't sleep deprived. I said, Nancy, I didn't know it was so bad. And I can't help you kill yourself, but if you do, I will still think well of you. I'll miss you. Maybe I'll understand why you had to get out of the pain. And I thought, I think I just gave her permission to kill herself. I thought, what did I just do? And then she looked at me and she looked at me and held on to my eyes just as that other patient had. And I said, what are you thinking? And I thought she was going to say, thank you for understanding I'm overdue.

But instead she looked at me and she said, if you can really understand why I might have to kill myself to get out of the pain, maybe I won't need to. And then she smiled. And then while I was looking into her eyes, I decided to hold onto her eyes and I said, If it's okay with you, I'm not going to give you any treatments that you've been on before that haven't really worked, unless you tell me, I think I need something and then we'll work on it together.

Would that be okay? And then she looked at me with a look that said, keep talking. I'm interested here. And then I leaned into her eyes. And I held on to them the way she had held on to my eyes and the way that other patient had held onto my eyes. But I held onto her eyes, like I was holding on to a drowning person and I said, what I'm going to do instead is, I'm going to find you wherever you are. And when I do, I'm going to just keep you company. Cause I don't want you to be alone there anymore. That'd be okay? And then her eyes started to water with relief, and then that's what we did. And she came back. And, so what I learned about listening is that, and it's interesting because in the last year I've founded a company called Michelangelo Mindset, Michael Angelo Mindset, and it's built on the metaphor and the quote, the famous quote from Michael Angelo, where he said, I saw the angel in the marble and I carved until I set it free. And what I realized that my listening and what I'm trying to teach people in the world is, that inside conversations, where someone is talking to you, is someone who is listening for something.

And so underneath whoever you're with, when they're listening to you, if you can know they're listening for something. So what happened with Nancy? She was listening for a reason to feel hopeful. And I think what caused her to feel hopeful is when someone was willing to not judge her and not see her as weak, for being suicidal to get out of the pain. I think what she was looking and listening for was the feel less alone in hell, because it was the feeling alone in it, just by herself, that was pushing her to the edge, and if she could feel felt. And feel less alone. She could start to feel the hope. So I want to make a distinction between clinical empathy and surgical empathy. So I've written or co-written nine books. During the pandemic I coauthored two books. One's called Why Cope When You Can Heal, and in it, my co-author Dr. Diana Hendel and I introduced this term that I'm now calling the approach that I used with these patients. And we're calling it surgical empathy.

Mark Goulston: And what surgical empathy is. Is its going into wherever a person is and what they're feeling, because what you'll discover is that when people are doing destructive things or they're acting up or they're acting out, they're actually doing that to cope with something that's worse. So they're attaching to something that you see as destructive, but they see in the case of a suicidal person, they see it as providing them relief.

If worse comes to worse, I can always kill myself. And here's the difference between clinical empathy checking box empathy and surgical empathy. So I'll demonstrate it on you Nigel, and then you can talk. Nigel is still here by the way. he hasn't gone out for pizza. He's still, So clinical empathy is sympathetic it's professional, and someone comes in and it's clear that they're quite depressed.

And you say, have you been feeling depressed or anxious? Yes. How long have you been feeling depressed? Six months, yeah. At its worst how bad does it get? Pretty bad. Tell me about some of those times. And, and have you thought of hurting yourself to deal with the pain? Yes. So this is all very good.

It's all very professional. It's following the protocol, and I'm not putting it down. There's a lot of you listening saying, I'd be scared to just ask those questions, but see if you can feel the difference between that's clinical empathy and here's surgical empathy. A depressed person sits down and you can say this to your depressed teenager, your spouse.

And instead of saying, have you felt? You've been depressed, haven't you? Yes. You've been really depressed. Isn't that true? Yeah. You've been scary depressed sometimes. You don't know how you're going to make it through the next day. Is that true? And during those times you've thought about anything that would take away the pain and anything. Is that true too?

Yes. Take me into the last time you felt that. But can you feel the difference? It's subtle, but when you're asking questions, which you're professional, you're asking them to make an evaluation and an assessment, which is perfectly fine, but it's really away from their feelings. So they don't feel them with you and you don't have to feel them and get scared by them.

Whereas the surgical empathy is you're basically inviting them to come into a conversation in which you're not judging them. You're not telling them that they're weak or there's something wrong with them. You're inviting them into a place where they can feel less alone in their pain.

Nigel Rawlins: It's normal listening, normal conversations. I don't know if we really look into each other's eyes anymore. And I really get that, and that's the whole point about getting you on this to talk about how do we make that shift to everyday conversations, where we are actually hearing what people are feeling or helping them be felt. And, I've got to admit. Since I've listened to your podcast. I did start reading, Just Listen, before I listened to your podcasts. Now I've listened to quite a few of your podcasts and gone back to your book, Just Listen. I'm really getting it, but making that shift to looking people in the eyes and then asking the questions to actually hear where they are. Do we normally do that? Or is it a clinical thing?

Mark Goulston: I think it's more a human thing because they don't do that in clinical practice either. But what I'm trying to teach the world and teach you and teach your audience is if you can know in your mind and your heart, that whoever you're with is listening for something it's a different. It's a different kind of focus, then they're listening to you. So if I focus on you listening to me as a host, you probably would have a series of questions you would ask them. I would give you informational and hopefully decent answers. And that would be pretty good. And that would be a pretty good informational conversation.

And we probably get away with it. But if I know that inside you listening to me is that you're listening for something. and I can ask you what it is, but I already know what it is. just being curious about what someone's listening for. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to really figure it out.

So let me see if this is true. There is Nigel. He has a show dedicated to women, who are a little bit older who are looking to make a transition. He wants to be helpful to them. And what you're listening for is information that will be immediately relevant to them. Meaning as they're listening to it, they can say, I can relate to that.

This applies to me. So you're listening from your guests for information that is relevant to your audience. That is clear, that is concise, and that is doable by your audience. Now I haven't been concise because you've invited me to share stories, but my guess is what you're listing for is if I have a guest who's able to share a story that serves as a great example of what he or she is talking about.

I think my listeners will be able to learn more from that as they hear the story. Then if my guest is rattling off bullet points, and I think the trust and confidence and respect of your audience, your female audience, means a lot to. And you want to honor their trust and confidence and be worthy of their respect.

Mark Goulston: So you're listing for guests that can really deliver what your audience is listening for. Is any of that true?

Nigel Rawlins: Yes, definitely. But to be honest, this gives them a taste that there's a different way of communicating. Now, I would say that a lot of women are probably pretty good communicators, anyway, it's probably men and I look back through my life and I'm 65 now.

I don't think I've really communicated like we're talking today and that, that's why I wanted you on the podcast is it'll help me. But I think it also stimulate people to go into your book and to try and get that viewpoint, that there is a better way to communicate. And I think with the eyes. I don't know how much people actually look into each other's eyes. I think transactionally during the day they don't, they just want to get something, get moving, but in a conversation or not, I guess with zoom, it depends where our camera's focused and, I think zoom would create some problems with looking to the eyes because it depends where the camera is. We're looking at the screen, there are techniques around that. so I think zoom does that, but in our day to day interactions with family, with, friends, do we really look into each other's eyes and are we really going to that sense of empathy? and yes, when we were talking about what I'd like for the audience, I'd like them to say, wow, this is great and I'm going to recommend that they'd listen to quite a few of your conversations, because your conversations with your guests,they're really out of this world. I, and I know that they are conversations. You don't have questions. I think you go with the flow and you get a great deal of information about it. And what I love about your podcasts is you not only speak to your listeners, you speak to your guests as well. And you model this communication behavior. And that's what I love about now, going back to your book, Just Listen. So yeah, I agree. I think it's fabulous. So the other thing too about the eyes is about noticing, and I think that's something that comes through in your podcasts as well. That was a big thing with your, you often mentioned noticing, what can you say about that?

I had eight mentors and they've all died. And one of my mentors was a fellow named Warren Bennis. And if you look up the name, Warren Bennis, I don't know how well he's known in your area, but he was probably one of the top five thought leaders in the field of leaders.

And he was a mentor to David Gergen who is on CNN. He was a mentor to a Howard Schultz, the CEO of Starbucks. he advised several presidents and,and he had wonderful quotes. I'll share a few of them and he learned them from other people and he gave full credit. So one of his quotes that he borrowed from, I'm forgetting the, person,he was the originator of something called Common Cause, I'm blanking on his name, but it was to,no, excuse me, Saul Bellow. Saul Bellow was a famous playwright and Saul Bellow had this saying 'Be a first class noticer'. Because noticing is different than looking, watching, or seeing. When you look, watch or see you're an observer, but you're not connected. But when you notice you lean in to what you're noticing. If I am looking into the camera, instead of your eyes, I'm noticing that it's focusing on me.

I'm wondering if it's zooming in or zooming out, or is that me zooming in or zooming out? So when you're a first-class noticer. You're really connected to whatever you're noticing and you form a connection. I just put up a recent article so people can find it and it's called Why You Don't and Won't Listen and Why You Should.

So it's up on LinkedIn and what I talk about. Oh, and it goes back to looking into people's eyes and listening. One of the reasons we don't listen is because, we're anxious. If your mind is already overwhelmed, you feel I can't take in anymore. I can't listen because it's all I can do to just manage what's in my head.

In addition to anxiety, one of the thing that gets in the way of it is sometimes, we can be arrogant. We can look down on someone and say, they're not worth listening to, or it can be our upbringing. We grew up in a family where everybody talked over each other. But then there's a couple things that I introduce that get in the way of our listing and looking into people's eyes and what they are is if we look into people's eyes and listen.

Nigel Rawlins: And we discover that what they want and need, if we're in business, is nothing of what we have. We're afraid we're going to miss out on a sale. Now, what if the person brings up something and we don't have it, then we're going to miss out on the sale. Or the other thing that we're afraid of seeing is especially this is much more true for men than women,.

Is,I call this for men, fear of feeling incompetent. So if someone brings up something that you know, nothing about, it's very difficult for men to say the term, I don't know anything about it. It's that pesky little Y chromosome, that has a little, a touch of,of not wanting to ask for directions or tell you that I don't know what you're talking about.

 And so often we don't look into people's eyes because we don't have the w we don't want to be afraid that there'll be wanting something from us that we don't have, or they will be talking about something that actually causes us to feel stupid. But really what I'm trying to teach the world. And it's an uphill battle with the business world, but it's because I'm a therapist, it's how I've gone into the business world. If whoever you're with, you are there to find out what they really want and need. And you are there to serve them, even if you don't make money. You could almost always say, I don't have that, but I know a place you can go. And what happens, you can build trust in a relationship.

Mark Goulston: And I don't know what it's like in your country, but building trust in America is like a unicorn: doesn't exist. what are you looking for from that product? You're foolish to trust anyone. But you're with people, if you can listen and look to find out what is it that you really want, and even be curious, why that, when did you decide that you wanted that product or that service? And if you really want to be honest and say, did you check out what you already have because to buy that product or service, it's going to cost you money and you might already have something that's working pretty well. Have you checked that out?

 So if you are there to just be of service, what'll happen is you're going to give people this wonderful experience of being able to trust you. And then maybe what you can do is you can refer them to other people and those other people guess what I'm going to be grateful to you. And that's what I'm trying to help the world discover that when you can just be of service, Without it being only about you, you have the opportunity to develop trust from whoever you're talking to and gratitude if you refer them to someone else.

Nigel Rawlins: That's so important. I think it takes the pressure off this idea. If you're in business for yourself, that you've got to be continuously selling and by helping look, I agree, totally. I did have a mentor for about 20 years. And he helped me make a shift to business. Unfortunately he passed away last year. but without his help, I would never have been able to make the shift I've made to business, because I had no clue, but he was very good at hearing what the needs were as well. He was a former Hewlett Packard marketing manager. very good salesman.

Mark Goulston: Here's something to keep in mind because this is a show about, being successful in business. So when I coach people and I coach a lot of female entrepreneurs and female executives, because, women are more open to help. and it's interesting, something that I hear frequently is that men are hiring more women coaches than male coaches, because we'll talk to our moms. We may not talk to our dads, there's that male to male type of thing, but here's something that I hope can apply to your business if you're listening. And what you really want to do is drill down and think of your service or your product and what is the problem that it solves.

Your product or service solves what problem for who when, in order to, so that... I'll repeat that because when you're meeting people and they say, what do you do? I coach people to try to not use the word: I do this. we do this because even though the other person's asking you, what do you do as soon as you say I do, we do, you just sound like another person who's just puffing themselves up. So this is what you do, and this is how it goes into really deep listening. So I'm going to ask you, what do you do? What you say is companies,by our services or products. Or companies or individuals hire us when, and you want to bring up a situation that's urgent, because urgency leads to action.

They buy our products or service when, in order to, which is how your product or service solves a problem. So that is the benefit . So for instance, I might say, as an executive coach executives, hire me or entrepreneurs hire me or founders hire me when they want to get through to a particular group, a particular demographic or particular individual.

Mark Goulston: Who they're not getting through to so that they can increase the motivation of that person to not only want to hear more from them. But actually want to buy something like a service or a product so that they can start turning conversations into making money so that they can survive being an entrepreneur and not have to go through the idea of, should I work for another company and get burned out again?

And that's such a powerful message. and with the people I work with, they don't need that many clients. One of the things you mentioned, I think even in, in your podcasts is that you coach women, can you tell us something about what that entails and why? Why women, you mentioned that men prefer women coaches. And are you saying that women prefer men coaches?

Mark Goulston: I ask women, I say, why are you using me? Why don't you use a woman? And a number of them will say, you're like the big brother I always wanted. And I say, what does that mean? And they say, a loving, big brother.

There's someone who's protective. Who's funny. Who's smart, but we'll tell you what you need to hear that you may not want to hear, but be very practical and you'll listen to that big brother telling you because, he's doing it because he it's laced with love. He's doing it because he cares about you much more than having to be right. Now some of you will say, oh, my big brother always had to be right. And it's really interesting because I remember I was one of the only, I might've been the only male speaker at a Mattel women's company. And, and there's even a video clips of me if you look up mark Goulston Mattel, you'll find six or so clips on YouTube. And what I said to this group, I said, I want to do a little bit of a, I think I called it psychological housekeeping, when women hire me, they think of me as a big brother. So don't think of me as your ex-husband or your dad, who are you have baggage with, or you're near a do well child who's abusing drugs and lying to you.

I'm like that big brother. You always wanted. And then what I say to the women, as I said, and the reason I want you to hear that, because, you might want to become the big sister that everybody always has. Because there's a lot of confusion for women about how to show up in the world and the workplace.

Should I be aggressive? Should I lean in like Sheryl Sandberg? And as many will say, it's easy to lean in when you're worth a few billion dollars. Shall I lean in or that's too aggressive? Should I be passive? Should I be submissive? And when I gave them this metaphor, Be like the big sister that everybody wanted.

And again, a big sister is someone who looks out for you, is playful is funny. and yet will tell you exactly what you need to do. I am blessed to have three children, two daughters, a 40 and 34 and a son 31, and my 40 year old,daughter, she's an amazing big sister. She has, my other daughter and my son's backs and she'll be really direct and she'll be really funny and she's exactly the big sister that everybody would always want.

Nigel Rawlins: That's fantastic. And I think that's what we've got to get across there that,It is not all men as coaches are transactional. And I asked the same questions. Why do women like working with me? And I think it's because. I, in my previous career as a, an elementary school teacher, I worked with women for 16 years, so I was used to working with them, and then I've worked with men and I found that difficult because they were often, wanting things done straight away. Whereas the women, know that things take time. And I think that's through their experience of life and living. With coaching, how do you become a coach to women? And I'm assuming you're talking about senior executive women.

Mark Goulston: Senior executives or entrepreneurs, because I also advise, accelerators, so they will bring me in to do presentations to startups,entrepreneurs, and one of the things that they really seem to like is when I talked to them about how do you approach investors? And I'll just share this with you because it is comical and it's, it's almost what they look for now in the, when I'm doing some training with them.

I'll say for instance, when you're with an investor and the investor smiles, do you think it's a, yes? And these people have tried it enough to know that when an investor smiles, it's usually not a yes, unless you've said something humorous. And I said, investors, don't smile because it's about money.

The reason they're smiling is because you've given three minutes of something that you have a 20 minute presentation about. And in three minutes, they've already decided they don't want to invest in. And they're smiling because they don't want to be rude and say, I've seen enough not interested because they saw all the work you went through to go through your presentation.

So they're smiling to be polite and not wanting you to catch on to the fact that they don't want to be rude after three minutes and say, I'm done.. So one of the things that I've coached the, the startups with, and they seem to love this particular thing. And again, this is not for every case. you have to customize it.

I said, if your experience tells you that you're with an investor and they're smiling, and there's no reason for them to be smiling, there's a good chance that they don't want to be rude. So how you bring this out into the open is you say to them, can we pause. And they're going to, and they're going to be nervous because you caught them not wanting to be rude, which is why they were smiling and they go, what? Can we just pause for a moment and go what you could say when we started, you were someone who had money to invest and I am a company that needs that money. And where we're at right now is you're, you have money to invest and I'm a company that's not going to see any of that money because you were listening for, or looking for something that you didn't hear and forget the rest of the presentation. What is it you were looking for, listening for, that you didn't hear because we might have it. We just didn't put it in the presentation. We're not exactly mind readers. We're just running a business that we're trying to get funded. And then if they tell you something that you actually have, you say, oh, I'm so glad you brought that up. Yeah. we have those things covered.

Yeah. We have those kinds of people. But if they bring up something that you don't have in the accelerator, what you can say, or if you're a woman, entrepreneur, who has friends who are entrepreneurs, you can say, oh, we don't have any of that, but I know three companies that do. And if you want, I can send you a little blurb about them because I think they have exactly what you're looking for.

And if you want an introduction, I can make that happen and you might, you and they might be successful together. So what you've done is you've taken an investor who in three minutes had thought, no, and you've focused now on their being successful. over your getting their money and then you've also focused on, maybe I can actually give them some businesses to invest in.

And so those businesses are going to be grateful to you that you made the introduction. So you've turned a no and a smile and a not wanting to be rude into someone who's grateful to you because you focused on their success and you made an introduction to some people who could help them. Does that makes sense?

 Could you see that?

Nigel Rawlins: Oh, yeh. And I'm thinking, gee, in Australia, if we could do that, our business would be so much more different and there is a very big difference, I think, between. business culture and Australian one, I think we're a bit, it's what do we call it? it's just go in America.

 I think we're a bit more what we call laid back, but the brilliant thing you're talking about is of being service, being of service and doing it with love for humanity. And now just thinking, hearing. and asking, it's a very different approach. to me it feels a different approach. But gee, if they could go out and start meeting and doing this, it would be amazing.

Mark Goulston: I think you can do this on a zoom call because again, I think if your intention is to be of service and people really get that. And again, it's not that you're being a Saint it's that if people sense that you're there to be of service and you're not doing it in a false way.

They'll begin to trust you, which is very rare. there's several people during my career, from big companies. And I got to know them. And I remember one who was a senior manager at Cisco and I met him at something and we became friends. And after about three months, he said, I've been trying to figure out your angle.

And I can't find one. And he said, it's unbelievable because I said, I do have an angle. And the angle is to be of service. My background was that of a therapist and something we didn't talk about is that I had a rough time during medical school and someone stood up for me against the medical school because they saw something special in me, I didn't realize it, but that person who was the Dean of students in retrospect, he was Michael Angelo and I was the David. Inside a future. We, he saw that if he was protective of me and he probably saved my career, but he probably possibly saved my life that I would go on to do that with people like Nancy and other people that I spoke to.

 So I think really what I was simply doing with all those patients who are suicidal is I was paying forward. Seeing something in them that they didn't in the same way as that person in my medical school saw something in me that I didn't.

Nigel Rawlins: Yeah, no, I definitely see that in your podcasts and your books, you are really doing that and reaching out and noticing, and that's teaching me a lot. I just wish I could notice more and do more. And hopefully through this podcast, we can help them with that. But that's fantastic. that's why I love listening to your podcasts. And some of them really blow my mind. They're just powerful. I actually make transcripts and read them and go through them.

And I'm hoping that, my listeners will start listening and I will make a list of the ones I really liked, but you can choose any of them and they're all informative and helpful, but it's all about this learning. I'm not too sure if I've got anything else to say or ask you, but you've really covered the most points and your book Just Listen. I really do highly recommend that and every podcast, I guess one of the things that I'd like to ask, how do people find out more about you? I will put this information in the show notes. if you go to LinkedIn, my profile's pretty up-to-date, our small company, Michelangelo mindset.com.

 You can go there and you can subscribe. We have a, A new newsletter that, if you like what I've shared here, the newsletters filled with that sort of stuff. I have a personal website, mark goulston.com. My podcast, My Wake-up Call. I'm up to about 250 episodes with 30 recorded ones in the queue

Mark Goulston: That's 10 weeks of inventory. I also have a free course. If you go to himalaya.com forward slash defeat, my first book was called. Get Out Of Your Own Way Overcoming Self-defeating Behavior. So if you go to himalaya.com forward slash defeat, you'll see. I have a course there called defeating self-defeat, it's an audio course.

And if you liked the way that I meandered through this, and you actually got something from it, hopefully you will enjoy the 13, very short, modules. and I'll give you a teaser for one. one of the modules is on procrastination and each of the modules has my strange way of looking at things and the, the usable insight, which is something that follows most chapters, almost all my books was we procrastinate, not because we're lazy, but because we're lonely and I'll end with this, anecdote, maybe Nigel will take me up on it with something he's procrastinating. I remember years ago I was on a radio show with a delightful young woman host. And I said, what's something that you're procrastinating. She said, everyone says, I should write a book. I've had an amazing life, but I haven't written a book. I said, really? I said, how long have you been putting off? She said, a couple of years, I said, here's the deal? when would be the best time for you to write for 30 minutes?

And she said seven in the morning. And I said, you're seven, and I'm four in the morning. I'm going to call you every day for the next, for the next several weeks. And I'm going to say to you, get up, put on your computer. Don't complain. It's 4:00 AM for me. boot up your computer. Are you in front of your computer?

Yes. Now give me a question that I should ask you. You'll start to answer and you'll be on your way. And we did this and she, I remember she said to her audience, remember that crazy psychiatrist, he's actually doing this. And so we did that for a few weeks and then six months later, she calls me and she says, what's your address?

I want to send you abook.

And doesn't it make sense if you've been at a university or college, when your dormitory is a mess, see your sororities, a mess your fraternity's is a mess. Doesn't it make sense that we clean it up when we all do it on a Saturday, when we're going to clean up the place, or if you're in something called Alcoholics Anonymous, we were able to. overcome an addiction because of the fellowship, because of the sponsorship, because someone actually cares about us so that if we reach out to them and say, I'm tempted to take a drink and you reach out to them, they say, Nope, I'm coming by, let's go to a meeting. And so that's just one example of the 13 self-defeating behaviors

Sounds like it's worth doing, I will do that because I keep procrastinating about a few things. Mark, this has been a fabulous talk and I really appreciate you, accepting my invitation. often when you,introduce your podcast, you often say, they accept my invitation to, and you've been very gracious to accept my one. Thank you so much. Take care. Bye bye.

Thank you for listening to my conversation with Mark Goulston. I hope you found it. Interesting. Please consider telling some others about the podcast and visiting the Wisepreneurs website for more information and the transcript. You'll also find show notes, listing Mark's books and links to his courses, his website, and some of my favorite interviews from his podcast.

 Thank you again for listening.
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