Lisa Marie Cabrelli Renaissance Woman

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli Renaissance Woman Returns

In a riveting chat with Lisa Marie, we delve deep into her intriguing journey from a seasoned actress of eight years to a committed Ph.D. scholar.

In the meantime, she worked in software development and then as an entrepreneur prior to selling that business and retiring to study Literature. As the conversation unravels, Nigel probes curiously about the shadows her past performing arts career casts on her accomplished work today. Lisa Marie enthusiastically underscores the vital discipline that her arts stint endowed her with, reinforcing the podcast's theme of valuing the versatility of skills women professionals bring to the table. The episode reveals the nature of a Renaissance woman transporting these skills into the dynamic landscape of entrepreneurship.

Her previous appearance was on episode nine,

Nigel Rawlins: Welcome Lisa to the Wisepreneurs podcast again.

Last, time we published a conversation, it was October 24th last year. So it's lovely to talk to you again. And the reason I wanted to talk to you again was because you were doing a PhD last time we spoke. And I want to know what's happened since then. How did you go with it? And what are you up to?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: Sure. Uh, yes, the PhD was fine. Um, I ended up, uh, graduating in June. Unfortunately, I didn't make it to my graduation ceremony because I was, uh, in Italy at the time and the graduation ceremony was in Scotland, but, um, I did graduate with a PhD in creative writing. So, um, that was quite a relief after four years of work.

And, um, I am thrilled to be back to my actual creative writing. Um, I did sell the novel that I wrote for my PhD that's been sold. So I'm starting on a new novel in a new genre. Um, I'm actually pretty close to halfway through. So, um, I'm writing a family saga this time. Um, and, uh, it is a family saga about a dynastic, um, real estate family in the Bahamas.

So it's based in, uh, Nassau, in the Bahamas. Um, I know a lot about Nassau because I lived there for five years and actually still have a home there. So we, we do spend a couple of months a year there, um, every year. That's my first project. And my second project is even more exciting. My second project is, um, I have been both a business coach and a life coach for many, many years.

Um, I actually don't coach individually anymore, um, because I find that I don't really have the time to do that. Um, but my, um, Ph. D. has given me... a lot of insight into what I was doing before because I discovered that the, uh, the, the structure of story, uh, really fed into people designing their lives. So I had a course that I've been teaching for many years and it's called ultimate life planning.

And it's basically focused primarily on women. And the goal of the ultimate life planning course is to teach women the, the tips and tools they need, uh, the skills and tools they need to plan the life that they really would like to live. Um, and I have that course and I haven't taught it in a while. I revisited the course with the knowledge that I gained during my PhD, and I'm now developing a course called, um, The Heroine's Adventure.

And it is my ultimate life planning course using the secrets of story and the hero's journey. So it's really adding like the, the real secrets of story into, um, the tools and techniques for planning and delivering your ultimate life.

Nigel Rawlins: Wow, that sounds amazing. Um, one of the things I was, um, that we did talk about on the last podcast interview was the fact that you were an actress for eight years. So the arts, and then you went into business for a while, which you sold and then retired from, and then you did your PhD in literature.

So there's the performing arts to start with, and now literature. And that's informing a lot of what you do, and you're a well organised person. How did being an actress for eight years, do you see any of that development, coming through as well?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: Absolutely I mean, the primary thing I think about being in the arts is that you really learn discipline. Um, so you're, you learn how to, um, plan and structure your day because you, you, you need to get in your, your practice, right? I mean, musicians, dancers, actors, everyone needs really, strong practice habits.

That's one thing. Uh, when I went into business, of course, uh, my performance skills were really valuable. Um, because I often had to present to thousands of, of, of people. Um, I was developing software for, um, global telecommunications. And so there were a lot of times I had to stand in front of, you know, a thousand salespeople at a sales conference and, and, um, present my ideas and convince them that my ideas were good ideas and that, you know, definitely my performance skills came in very handy at that point.

And then also, um, in my writing, I think that my acting skills are even more valuable because I'm capable of understanding character. I mean, I've learned how to put myself into the Um, footsteps of other people during my acting training. Um, and I know the techniques for what I need to do to, to make those characters strong and unique and interesting.

And when you're writing, it's the same kind of process, you put yourself into the shoes of the character that you're writing and you just let them speak. So yeah, I think that the arts are really valuable in so many ways, just, uh, creativity in general, uh, enables people to think outside of the box and to extend their reach into other disciplines. I remember actually speaking to my mentor who was, um, who was an acting teacher for many, many years. And I was complaining to her when I was working, when I was designing software and I was working in business. And I said, I feel like I am not using my creative talents. And she said to me, are you, are you crazy?

You know, what is software design if it's not creation? And, you know, she put it in my head that actually everything we do is creative. Everything we do is creation. And so you're not wasting your talents by doing other disciplines.

Nigel Rawlins: Mm. No, that's amazing. Um, I'm just thinking that... Using the body to move and to perform, um, must be informing you compared to the rest of us who don't do anything like that. Um, and I think you just explained how that works is you're able to put yourself into the character. Were you seeing yourself as a character when you get up on the stage? In your business presentations?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I was the character of Lisa Marie, the business person. I mean, I, I, you know, I, I've had imposter syndrome my whole life. I still do. And the way I handle that is just become the person that I'm expected to be in that particular circumstance.

Nigel Rawlins: Now that was an interesting thing you've just raised about the imposter syndrome, because I'm beginning to hear that a lot. I don't know if it's just women, or creative people, um, what can you tell us about the imposter syndrome and how to deal with it?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: I personally think it's primarily women. Um, And I don't know why, but I don't often see it in, in men, you know, we have this saying, have the confidence of a mediocre white man, you know, because it seems that most men go into everything with the confidence that they're just going to succeed. Uh, I had that experience so often in the corporate world.

Um, and I think that women feel that they basically constantly have to, to prove themselves, perhaps. Um, I don't know why I have imposter syndrome, my husband gets really annoyed with me because, uh, you know, I have a PhD in creative writing, but I'm still afraid to, you know, put myself out there as any kind of expert.


Nigel Rawlins: And how many books have you written now?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: I've written seven novels.

Nigel Rawlins: Seven novels, you've done a PhD, you've been an actress for eight years, you ran a business to multi million dollars which you sold, um, and yet you still feel you've got some imposter syndrome.

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: I do. I still feel I, yeah, I still feel like I have to prove myself. I don't know why. It's, it's a very interesting question. I'm sure a therapist could get it out of me, but

Nigel Rawlins: Well, one of the reasons I originally interviewed you was because you did, you put together a Roam Research course and, um, I want to talk a little bit about note taking and the fact that when you went through your university, uh, so you're doing your PhD, you obviously had to organize your notes that led you to Roam Research.

Because I basically work with professionals nowadays who are 50, 60, sometimes older. They have to organize themselves and be able to write and to communicate. So you, you did the Roam Research course that I did, but you've moved on a little bit from that and uh, can you tell us about your note taking and your writing and the systems you use ?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: Sure. Um, yeah, I used Roam Research exclusively during my PhD. It was an extremely valuable tool and remains valuable to me because it does contain a the majority of my notes and thoughts over the past four and a half, five years. Uh, has it been five years? Maybe four years. But what happened is towards the end of my PhD, when I was actually finalizing the draft, uh, Tana came along.

I was very good during the entire time of using Roam Research, not being distracted by shiny new things. Um, I had a project to finish. Um, I had all of my notes and my work for that project in Roam Research. Um, so for me to get distracted by another system would have been... disastrous, right?

Because I would have had to start all over again. In the shift between, um, finishing my academic work and going back to exclusively my creative work, um, I decided that I would give Tana a chance. Um, it was actually TFT Hacker who, uh, texted me and said, you really should try this tool. And he gave me an invitation and I have a lot of respect for Chris.

And so... Um, I said, okay, and I tried it. And I put it away and I didn't use it. Um, because I, I, it was very difficult shifting my thinking from the way that Roam is structured to the way that Tana is structured. It works in a completely different way. And then I was doing some creative work and I realized that I really needed to have more detail, um, about my super tags, my tags, um, thnn Roam was allowing me to collect in a very organized manner.

Nigel Rawlins: We should explain tags, because tags work in Roam, so any note taking app will have tags, so would you like to explain that before we then go into Tana's tags?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: What you can do with tags is you can take a node and you can tell, uh, the, you can tell what the node is by adding a tag. So take, for example, because I'm back into creative writing now, I had a character, and let's say my character's name was, you know, Joe Schmo, and in Roam, I would tag him as a character.

That would automatically create a page in Roam called character, and underneath character, it would collect... every single person that I had named as a character, which is very, very useful. Also in Roam, you can set templates so that when I were to tag something as character, I could actually run a template that would give me the main things I needed to know about a character.

The problem is, is there's no relationship between the fields that you put under Joe Schmo and that character tag. Whereas, in Tana, if I tag Joe Schmo as a character, the actual tag of character contains, um, customizable fields that I can assign to Joe Schmoe, so it's like a template in Roam, but it's really a data structure that allows you then to associate those specific qualities with Joe Schmo, rather than just under Joe Schmo and no relationship to character, if that makes sense.

Nigel Rawlins: Probably to people who are not too clear about what we're saying, is when you take notes, um, you can have notes in notebooks, and you'll never find them because one of the big things you're about is being able to use those notes and bring them out when you want them. And that's the issue.

If you're taking lots of notes, uh, and the best way nowadays is digital notes, into these. Um, programs like Roam or Tana, we've got to be able to find them and see what they're related to. And this is what it helps us with. So it makes us smarter. Um, it's just, you've just got to get your head around. And unfortunately , I guess, older people who are not so tech savvy, um, it's something they might need to get their head around. Otherwise, all their notes that they've probably taken over their lifetime have become useless or difficult to find. So, you've now moved into Tana, you still have Roam to keep notes in.

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: I still have Roam because I have a great deal of notes in Roam. A lot of them are related to my PhD, so I don't necessarily need to see them every day. So it's quite valuable for me to have a separate database that contains all of that information that I can reach for if I need it, but it's not going to clutter up my existing database in TANA.

I have to say that... Roam is still the best solution for academics. I would not recommend TANA to anyone who is working in academics based on my experience. I could not have replicated the magical academic note taking course in Tana. Um, I know that, um, Lucas, Cortex Futura, has done a lot of academic stuff and his is probably well worth checking out, but I did not, uh, think that it would be able to be transferred because there's some things missing, um, in Tana.

It's a very young product, but the development is going at such a rapid pace that I'm sure it will catch up. You know, in the academic realm very, very quickly. Uh, there is no Readwise integration, which is an essential piece of, uh, the academic, uh, process. So because I was not going to be, um, doing academic work anymore, because I've now, I'm, I've left academia, I'm back to my creative writing.

Uh, I did not keep up the, the magical academic note taking course, uh, but it was still selling because even though it was not up to date, there's a lot of valuable content, um, in that course. And so I just reached out to everyone who had already taken the course in an email. And I said, uh, anyone who wants to take over a magical academic note taking can just have it and use my videos and, you know, take the revenue that's coming in.

Um, and I got a really interesting, uh, email from a librarian at a university in the U. S. And, um, he expressed a great deal of interest in taking it over and making it open source. So he wanted to, uh, be able to offer the course for free to, uh, undergraduate students as well as to graduate students, and he wanted to continue to develop it.

So I passed it on to him. So it's in his hands.

Nigel Rawlins: Oh, fantastic. Um, I found it very useful because I, I was struggling to get a better handle on Roam. I, I have started with Tana, but I've just let it go because I've just been reading so much. You mentioned Readwise. I guess we should explain that a bit too. Um, do you want to explain that? And, and are you using the Readwise reader as well?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: Yes, I use both.

Nigel Rawlins: I'll get you to explain that then.

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: Sure. So Readwise is a tool that, um, it helps you on the front end and the back end. So Readwise Reader is kind of like Pocket or another one of those tools where you can capture, uh, articles or blog posts and things you'd like to read from the web. And then as you, uh, take notes on that particular article, Readwise captures all of your notes.

So you can highlight a sentence and then make a note on that sentence and Readwise will capture it. But it's not just capturing from ReadWise Reader. ReadWise has extensions that capture from every single place that you read. So I read on my Kindle. I read in my Kindle app across, you know, several different places.

I used to read in several places online, but now I use ReadWise Reader for everything, um, because it captures from several sources. And then ReadWise will capture all of your notes from all of these different locations. And Roam has an integration. So literally, automatically, every day, ReadWise goes out there, looks at all the notes you've taken, and transfers them into your Roam Research application.

TANA doesn't have that ability yet, so what I've been doing is just transferring everything over to Roam, and then going in and manually transferring things to TANA, which actually works very well for me because it also gives me another opportunity to run through my notes before I bring things in so that I make sure they're worthwhile, um, keeping.

Nigel Rawlins: So tell me, what are you reading on your Kindle, and what are you reading on your Readwise Reader. What sort of things are you reading?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: Well, right now I am doing a lot of research for the, the course that, um, I was talking about. So I'm reading a lot of craft books, um, a lot about story structure and reader engagement, all of the same content that I actually read for my PhD. Um, I am rereading and extending that reading. Um, I also do a lot of, um, personal development reading as well.

Um, Readwise links to Medium. Um, it links to, uh, um, other, you know, capturing systems. So, when I'm reading personal development stuff, I often carry stuff over from there. I try to, I try to focus my research... time, which is basically like all the time, right? That's what I'm doing when I'm working. I try to focus my reading on the projects that I am working on at this time.

I think it's very easy for people to enjoy taking notes so much that they just collect notes. And they don't do anything with them. So I really try to make sure that I'm reading within the project that I'm working on. If I catch myself straying and taking all these notes that when they get into Tana, I think, where do these go? Then I know I'm reading the wrong things.

Nigel Rawlins: See, that's interesting in that regard too, because as we get older, we have less time to read, so we do have to be more selective. But unfortunately I'm a bit that way. I read everything and anything for some reason. So I have thousands of notes, but um, and I want to talk to you about this, ChatGPT and Notes from Tana or Rome.

How are you finding that?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: I love ChatGPT. Um, love it. Uh, I use it all the time. Um, not to write because it doesn't write very well. She doesn't have very many writing talents. What I use ChatGPT for is a brainstorming partner. So I always write to think it's just something I've always done. When I have something, an idea I need to work through, I work it out through my fingers. Um, when I have a problem, I write. Uh, when I have a story to tell, I write. Um, and it's very difficult when you are, writing is a very lonely job, right?

You're, you, when you're writing, it's just you and the keyboard or the paper or whatever form you, you write in. And sometimes you need someone to speak to who understands everything that you have just written, right? That's very difficult if you don't then sit down and read three pages of content. You know, my husband, he'll, my, he, I read my fiction to him.

Um, so he knows the story, so I could probably have a conversation with him, but he's not a fiction writer. He doesn't even read fiction. But ChatGPT takes the place of, um, myself. So, when I use ChatGPT, it's like I'm having a conversation with myself, because I put in everything that I have written, and then I can ask questions of ChatGPT specific to my content.

So it really is a game changer. Um, it's, it actually was the, um, the tool that I used when I was brainstorming this course. I knew that there was a way to connect all of my skill sets, but I didn't really know what kind of product could result from those skill sets. I knew I had content to share and things to tell people.

Everyone talks about coaching. Everyone talks about creative writing and everyone talks about this. What do I specifically have to offer that is unique and original? And so I had a long conversation with ChatGPT. I told ChatGPT my whole history, my whole work history, my skill sets, things that I thought that I was good at.

And although ChatGPT didn't come up with the idea of Ultimate Life Planning through the Secrets of Story Structure and the Hero's Journey, um, it led me to that idea. Because I could engage with ChatGPT as though it were fully thinking, individual, using, and it knew everything about me.

Nigel Rawlins: I'm finding it amazing. So it's, um, I think there's one of the chaps on Twitter and I think he's on LinkedIn, he talks about it being an assistant.

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: Yes, it is. It's an assistant.

Nigel Rawlins: So having all these notes. Having ChatGPT and then having, you know, what's going on in your mind and using it to help organize your thoughts, um, and then going on from there.

So that, yeah, that's pretty amazing. And again, I, I, I think this is something, um, you know, professionals have got to come to terms with. And I don't know whether it's because we're not in jobs where we go nine to five and I guess we're out um, creating things that we can explore that. I don't, I don't know where it goes or where it comes from.

Um, how did you take it up? Where did you come across it?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: Um, I read all the time. So that's, that's where I came across it. Just, I read all the time. I'm, you know, I'm on Twitter as well. So I, I, I'm pretty good about identifying like future trends and things that are going to be big. And, um, yeah, I, I read about it somewhere and I, started using it and I, I took a quick little, um, prompt course.

Those are very, very helpful that teach you how to write prompts. Um, and that, that was really helpful, but I use it for my creative writing too, not to write again. I don't use it to write. It's, it's so, you know, all these people who are talking about, um, plagiarism and things like that. I don't use it to write anything.

So I couldn't be plagiarizing anything. I use it to think and analyze and converse with the content that I've already written, um, and help me think.

Nigel Rawlins: Do you use Grammarly as well?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: I do. I use Grammarly.

Nigel Rawlins: That's got a, um, that's got a plagiarism checker on it as well.

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: I do Grammarly Go, which is the AI portion of Grammarly that writes for you. I don't use that. I use Grammarly to check my grammar because as you're writing, you know, you make a lot of mistakes.

Nigel Rawlins: I've actually found the Go bit just a bit annoying.

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: Me too, I turn it off on everything.

Nigel Rawlins: Which ChatGPT are you using? Are you subscribing to it?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: Yeah, I subscribe to the regular ChatGPT, um, and I did see you were talking about Poe earlier, and there, there is one of the, uh, ChatGPT teachers who's talking about Poe, because you can still get the ChatGPT for when you subscribe to Poe

Nigel Rawlins: I was going to say it's about 30 US a month, uh, but you get Claude 2 in there, which you can upload multiple documents and get it to compare them and, and, and it's quite a bit of research. So it's quite surprising what you can do. And then you've got about 10 others in there. So it's actually, for me, probably a better subscription than just ChatGPT 4.

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: yeah, I would agree with that. I think the issue for me is that Tana is integrated to ChatGPT4 for so I use AI within the Tana application. And so if I were to move to Poe, I wouldn't be able to use ChatGPT4 for, um, I'd have to go back to ChatGPT3.5.


Nigel Rawlins: you used to be called Laptop Lisa. Is that still the case?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: Laptop Life Lisa, yeah, that's still my handle on a couple of, uh, a couple of places.

Nigel Rawlins: You mentioned before that you're really good at seeing trends that are coming. Can you see some trends in self employment or freelancing or in business?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: Well, the reason, yeah, the reason I was Laptop Life Lisa is because I actually became a digital nomad in, uh, 2006. And, you know, now the big trend is being a digital nomad. And that's because people recognize that it was possible through, um, the COVID, uh, pandemic. They realized that they could work from home, which meant they could work anywhere, but I had actually set up a completely location independent business.

Um, in 2006, so I actually worked all over the world at that point. Um, as far as trends go... Um, I think that AI is, is the trend to look out for. Uh, I think it's going to change the world in ways that we cannot even currently imagine. It is, uh, I mean, right now it's not sophisticated enough, but the, but the advances they are making are happening so quickly.

Um, it's going to unfortunately eliminate a lot of jobs, so people are going to have to find other ways to, you know, um, make money. And it might even get to the point where, you know, AI could replace most of, of what we're doing and we need to start, you know, countries need to start thinking about a universal basic income.

Nigel Rawlins: What happens when there are no jobs? Um, and the robots are doing the work. Um, I think that's going to be very interesting culturally and politically as well. Um, so what I'm thinking about is, or what I do know from some of the people I've spoken to on the podcast is that, um, copywriters are finding they're getting less work.

Um, so there's a few, um, few freelancers out there that are finding that, you know, things are drying up because people are able to do some of this work, especially if they're smart. So, you mentioned you did a prompt course. Um, how important do you think prompting is with, um, AI?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: Oh, I think it's essential. Absolutely essential. But it's kind of been the trend that's been developing for a while, which is it's not any research is not any more about, um, looking for answers. It's about asking the right questions. And it's been that way since Google came along, right? Unless you really knew how to ask the right questions, you weren't going to get the information that you were looking for and I see older people struggling even with Google asking the right questions to get the right result and so prompt engineering is a really, really valuable skill and if there are copywriters who are out there losing their jobs. I would say take a prompt engineering course and learn how to prompt, um, very quickly because it's going to be a job that's going to be essential.

The people who are going to rule AI are the people who know how to ask the questions to get the right answers. AI is not intelligent. It's a language learning model. So all it's doing is feeding back to you what it thinks you want, right? But it doesn't make any decisions of its own. So unless you're asking the right questions, you are not going to get good results.

And I think a lot of people are not enjoying ChatGPT because they don't know how to ask the right questions. And so they are judging their results saying this tool is no good. It's not that smart, but it's actually it's the responsibility of the human to use it correctly. I

Nigel Rawlins: I've probably used it 20 times today, um, to do a whole range of things. Um, all different. Um, and it helps me solve problems. It helps me rewrite a paragraph that I know what I want to try and say. Uh, and I've got my notes in there and I just ask it, how would you rewrite this? And it gives me a go. And then I'll work through that and I eventually get what I want.

Sometimes it gives me more than I thought. And it, it sometimes wows me and you're right. I think the power is in how you interact with it. And, and yes, you definitely need to know what prompting is. Um, I might, do you, did you say you did a prompting course? You did

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: did. Yes,

Nigel Rawlins: any particular one or was just a prompting one?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: I did, but I don't know the name of it

Nigel Rawlins: Okay. Did you find it a good one?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: Yes, it was good. It was primarily about Content creation. So it was it was one of the earlier ones. So I just picked one , it was good in giving you a real strong overview of how to structure your prompts. What is great in TANA is that TANA has a prompt engineering workbench.

So what you can do is, if you want to write a prompt, you can pick a node, so you can pick a section of text that you want to use as the context for the prompt, and then they give you a prompt workbench. Where you can ask the question, see what the result would be on that particular piece of context, and then keep tweaking the prompt until you get the content that you were expecting.

So that's a really, really excellent tool. There's probably tools like that out there, outside of TANA, you know, where you can do that kind of work. And the other secret that I discovered from the course, which I'll send to you after we get off when I look it up, um, is Uh, ask ChatGPT what the prompt should be.

Nigel Rawlins: It's simple, isn't it? Um, and the other thing too is you can give it instructions of how you want it to do things. You know, I have to tell it, please do not use metaphors. Because they're terrible. Alright. So, you've been designing a course. Can you tell us where you are with that course you're designing?

Where is it now? And how's it going? And when are you going to release it?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: I am about halfway into the design of the course. The original course is there. It's been taught. It's been very successful. I've got, you know, a number of great reviews on that course. I can use, um, but layering in this concept of story structure and the hero's journey and specifically relating it to women by using, um, the theories around the heroine's journey, which are different than the hero's journey is actually taking a lot of research and a lot of time. Luckily, I have a lot of it from my PhD. Um, but there's a lot of ideas that I want to also add in. So it's going to take some time. I'm hoping that it's going to be ready for October, but I do have a waitlist, a VIP waitlist landing page out there. So if anybody would like to join the VIP waitlist, I can certainly give you that link, uh, where people can go.

The idea is that it's going to be an online course. It's going to be a self paced online course released all at once. Um, it will not involve me. So it's not a cohort course. Um, so I won't be, uh, teaching it live. However, there will be a high end, um, retreat option. After you've taken the course where I will be holding retreats in my home So there'll be very very intimate retreats with only two or three women at a time.

They'll be available probably in the Bahamas. Um, well, definitely in the Bahamas, uh, possibly in Italy and, um, Argentina. So there'll be locations that are really inspiring. Uh, and there'll be very intimate and, uh, you'll get a lot of time with me directly. So that's the plan for the development of, of what I'm working on.

I think it's very... unique, uh, and a really, um, useful way for looking at personal development and planning your life. Um, story is, you know, an ancient and universal, uh, tool and, um, we can use it right now, you know, to, uh, help us get to where we need to be.

Nigel Rawlins: Yeah. And I couldn't think of anyone better than you to do that. I mean, you, you have done a lot in your lifetime already and you're still very young, which is good. All right. Uh, is there anything else we need to do? Cause I think we've basically covered everything. So is there anything else, um, you'd like to say?

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: I would be really thrilled if your, uh, listeners would take a look at the course. Um, and I would be really thrilled if anyone wants to get in touch with me to ask me any questions or, uh, needs any, you know, advice on, on the note taking courses or the note taking tools, happy to do that. So I'll give you, uh, my contact info as well.

So, you know. I'm here and I'm available to through email anytime.

Nigel Rawlins: Fantastic, well thank you very much. It's been wonderful speaking to you again. Um, you always inspire me with the way you think and the things you do. And I keep thinking, I have got so much to learn yet. So thank you very much Lisa.

Lisa-Marie Cabrelli: Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it.