Learning and Development Professional


Nigel Rawlins: Welcome, Jane to the Wisepreneurs podcast. And thank you for joining me. Could you tell us something about yourself?

Jane Hudson: I certainly can. So my name is Jane Hudson. And I run a small learning design consultancy called j based learning. And what do I do? So I do a range of things, anything from writing elearning programs through to providing strategic advice to senior leaders, about how they can approach their organizational learning strategy and build really positive cultures for their people. So it's a really broad spectrum, anything from writing, to graphic design, to building PowerPoints to writing strategic plans and documents. That's what I do in the debut.

Nigel Rawlins: Right, and you're working for yourself.

Jane Hudson: I am working for myself now just thinking about that this morning, about 18 months coming up to us in July. So I run my business from home, which is really, really cool. And had plans to run it very much as an online digital based business. And then of course, COVID, he was just really pushed everybody into realizing that you can do great work and where you live doesn't really shouldn't affect the opportunities that you can you can have access to.

Nigel Rawlins: Well, it's a couple of things that we live for one, and why. And the other one is how COVID has sort of changed your business. So let's stop. Where do you live?

Jane Hudson: I live in regional Victoria. So I moved out of Melbourne, coming up to three years ago. And the first year that I saw about two hours out of the city by public transport or car. Bit of a go back, like tree change kind of situation, you know. And the first year that I was living up here, I was commuting to Melbourne for a job that I had on the other side of town. So that was good. And in the end away. I just don't want to do this anymore. I really want to run this business from my home office. So now usually in the country, and I'd get to do the work that I love to do. And pretty much I don't need to travel anywhere to do it, which is pretty awesome.

Nigel Rawlins: Yeah. No traveling so people don't. Well, I think a lot of people since COVID have began to realize that the commute takes up a lot A lot of times, so whether they'll ever want to go back to that. So let's come back to COVID. How has that affected your work? Have you in terms of getting work and all that?

Jane Hudson: Um, in all honesty, I probably have this survivor's guilt in this comment. In all honesty, it really has not had a negative impact on going for me, I lost it, when it first hit, and we started going into lockdown. I lost a few. I lost a few jobs, and also a few potential jobs. But what I found, of course, because I'm in learning and development, most organizations very quickly wanted to pivot and run their face to face training online. So that generated quite a lot of work for people like me in terms of helping them to convert what they would deliver in a face to face workshop into a really positive live learning online experience. So it's, I've actually, I'm doing okay.

Nigel Rawlins: Which is great, you know, for somebody who's right, well, I want to come back to learning development too, but I'm just saying, Well, I'm just thinking how did you get to this position where you can work from home and do the learning development and stuff like that? What's been the journey that got you to where you are today?

I'd

Nigel Rawlins: like you to go right back. So you went to high school then what Yeah.

Jane Hudson: Okay, so I'm, I was a complete failure at school. I mean, it quite seriously, that's not me growing up for me, I everyday was not, was not my favorite space. And I'm not that clever in in the academic load or so I thought. So I left school, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I just started getting like menial jobs and moved into share houses now. I'm an old time and so we're going back to Sydney in the late 70s, early 80s. So living in this year house, I get lead count. I was living in a share house with five ex Navy sailors or musicians or passionate about their music practicing six to eight hours a day. And that is turned around and said we need a bass player Do you want to do that? Okay. And I just fell in love with it. And it was jazz it was not rocket was not hot. And I became obsessed by it. And in the end just started picking up working bands like in RSL club. So I spent three years playing in a country and western band on the central coast of New South Wales. Long story short, wait to the New South Wales Conservatorium of music study jazz there with Don barrows, George Gaul. And Carrie videl. Paul McNamara, they might not be known as the people there but I themselves, share them and then moved into music theater. So a friend of mine, at the time was offered a job playing in a show called Little Shop of Horrors, Theatre Royal, he couldn't do it. He asked if I would like to Oh, yes. And that was my sweet spot. So I spent about 10 years basically playing in Broadway musicals. Yeah, the standard eight shows a week. Some of them tour. So I got to come to Melbourne and I got to go to Brisbane. And I had a mentor. His name was Frankenstein Smith. So tell me if I'm rambling. No, no, no, that's

Nigel Rawlins: fantastic. It's a lovely story. I mean, I mean, most people's ears would have picked up when you said you were in a share house with five former sailors who,

Jane Hudson: as I said that I went, Okay, cool. All platonic.

Nigel Rawlins: But everyone's ears would have gone Whoa.

Jane Hudson: Yeah, they were interesting. They were interesting. They joined the Navy to study music. Wow, they played in the Navy bands and electronic stuff. And a nice days, I might be still saying when you sign up for the Navy, you sign up for 16 years. So when they left, they just really wanted to focus on the music that they wanted to play. And that was jazz. So yes, so we fast forward into music theater, and I had a mentor who was the musical director of several shows that I did because I became like his bass player. And his name was Frank Smith and he was actually had recently come back from the States. He was the keyboardist and musical director for Esquire. And we just got like a house on fire. But being what was that the late 80s being the late 80s HIV hit really hard and fast, and he got caught up in that initial few years of mess. What's a good word? Lots of people were dying from Yeah. Right. So he died. And I never forgiven him for that fellowship. And I had a one year old son at that point. So a combination of things happens, life can happen to you while you're making plans, the husbands and fathers said child signed or sign out of being parents, we decided that that was not his thing, which I thought was slightly unfortunate timing to work that out after you've had the child. So I came back to Melbourne. So I'm from Melbourne, originally, family had moved up to Sydney, lived up there for 20 years, and I moved back to Melbourne with then one year old son entirely going, I need to, I need to live somewhere where there are opportunities. So I was living in the Blue Mountains by there. And I need to make some really quite significant changes to what I do in order to you know, they are responsible self supporting parent base. Yeah. And I have no regrets. So without wishing to sound callous, or uncaring. It was hard when when the husband left. And the benefit of hindsight, it was actually the kindest thing he could have done for the children. Hmm, yeah. So um,

Nigel Rawlins: and I had to say, for a lot of women, what you're talking about might resonate with them, because it's happened to them too. And they've had to go forward with their lives, and they do a wonderful job. And I think, obviously, where you are today, you've done a wonderful job, because you've got a happy grown up, son now to

Jane Hudson: my number one, son. Yeah, look, I like to think I've done an amazing job. And we all know that no, no parent is perfect. So I think you just do the best that you can with what you write and try and make things work. So the big driver, so I changed careers and the driver was was will. And it was also the realization it might sound silly that I could keep working in music theater six nights a week, but there are no daycare centers that run. So the dilemma was waiting, you put this child to do that kind of work. And of course, frankly, gone as well. So it was time, it's time to make change. So So I signed up for the soul supporting parents pension, and I went to the local what was then Skillshare. So there's a program that the government needs to run, called Skillshare. And job club. This was in the early 90s, where we had a really bad recession here in Victoria, and very high, long term unemployment. So that program was part of the government's strategy to help people get back into the workforce. So I went there and learned how to use a computer, and then setting him up for some volunteering. So I've already get some experience. And then from there, apply for a job with them as a job club leader, which I got. And they trained me how to do that do that initial, what was the train the train the

Nigel Rawlins: train the train.

Jane Hudson: And then, and from there, I ended up becoming the what was my word? I love being CEO of that community organization. And then then I'll say, finally, Santa Claus. And I just kept following opportunities in one word in learning and development, because not just because it's what I know, apart from playing music, but through working in the job club, I could count I had seen firsthand the impact that learning can have on people's lives. And it's the technical stuff. It's like, how do you apply for job? How do you water Michelin, but much more importantly, it was all of the self development. And the attitudinal stuff because long term unemployment is it's a base, and it's a heartbreaker. And people lose, lose their confidence in their self esteem, and don't even know where to start anymore. I mean, I've worked with particularly middle aged men, and I am picking that demographic quite deliberately, because the impact on them was really devastating, because for a lot of men, their identity is wrapped up around the work. So I've worked with people I work with people who have been out of work for 12 months and not yet told they want to get out and put a suit on and go and sit in the park somewhere. And after that ticket because I couldn't bring themselves to admit, or I had one person who by the time he came to the job club to get some help. He used up all his savings electricity have been cut off the gas have been cut off the phone have been cut off he was just absolutely threadbare. So the learning thing for me is the technical combined with the self, that how do you learn human skills? How do you learn your about yourself how to be clients yourself how to communicate more effectively how to just travel better in in your life? Yeah.

Nigel Rawlins: So what an interesting journey so music gigging. Yes. You know, early in early days, did you What were some of the musicals that you were engaged with?

Jane Hudson: My very first show was a show called little shopping horns. Yeah. Which is about amenities and plans. Okay. Um, and then what else? Pirates of Penzance with the Torres Strait opera Guys and Dolls back in the day with Izzy Hayes and Ricky may Jerry skills which is where I met Frank so that was like a and they actually found some footage on YouTube the other day was just weirded me out no and so compilation of all Jerry Herman's most famous songs mashup lines virgin canal a Deborah Byrne

Nigel Rawlins: are famous Australians.

Jane Hudson: Yeah. What else went on to do big gorilla? Which I just really I mean I loved all these to be river was really special. So Cameron data john English joining us is Gemma was in the band on the bass line. He's the drama of marriage made in heaven. Oh, my God. Sugar babies. Yeah. And the rest escapes me and I should know because I was there at the time. But that's sort of you know, Theatre Royal, Her Majesty's theatre. Let's go on tour. I did one little show. It was a cabaret. It was gorgeous. And we was the classic we rehearsed event in the band. They shipped us up to Brisbane for the opening night. And at the end of the night, they closed the show us closing the ship, it's all back. There's no guarantees in that world.

Nigel Rawlins: But what an interesting start, so you were working with the jobless, and then you've obviously moved on to some other jobs. So how has this l&d or learning and development grown through the other work that you've done, you want to talk about some of those or some of the experiences that you've had?

Jane Hudson: Sure. So in one day, or letting a developer development is an interesting profession, most people that you talk to will say that they chained into a kind of through the back door or sideways. And that was the same for me. So I did that job thing. And then to be really honest, number one son was in grade four. And in a field of absolute inspiration, I with him and with family input. We all agree the best school for will was a private school. lots of reasons, no judgment, public, private, doesn't matter. For me, it's about matching the school with the child what's going to give them the best chance and sign up to a fairly hefty financial commitment. So I started desperately searching for a better paying job. And a job came up with WorkSafe Victoria, which was almost a mirror of what I was doing on a project with Telstra. So I applied and I got it. And that's also where I learned the importance and the the importance of regulation, and how learning and development plays such a pivotal role in it realize becoming more effective in the communities that they work. So I moved into Word say I was there for Gosh, nine years, which is really quite long.

Nigel Rawlins: Just button and say worksafe. To our listeners, would you like to explain what works? That actually does? Yes.

Jane Hudson: All right. So WorkSafe Victoria, like many is a health and safety regulations. So they are the ones that run the insurance side of health and safety compensation. They're also the people who take preventative action. So they send the inspectors out to inspect workplaces, are they complying with the law? Is it a safe and healthy workplace? They also, unfortunately, are the ones who need to go and investigate serious incidents in the workplace and fatalities, which is pretty confronting, so when we bring an inspector in to train them, the general rule if I didn't have a policing background, the general approach was no one did fatalities for the first two years because you may To build them up to be able to, to have the skill base and also have done a bit of work around their emotional resilience of how do you how do you conduct yourself in that situation? Yeah. And your job was to help train them. And my job was in the training, right? We run induction programs for new inspectors, ongoing professional development. When I first started there, my job was to roll out, deploy and government workplace inspections. So a national qualification for the entire work safety inspector workforce. And that's a big project. So that was like three years. Because big workforce plus it had to be designed, and we had to make it fit and operational schedule. So yeah, so we did all the training within the within the regulator to help the inspectors, investigators, team leaders, managers, be as effective as they can in the work they do.

Nigel Rawlins: Wow. So again, building on the experience that you started with the Skillshare. So you obviously had some other jobs over the years, any in particular, that standard that you want to mention, or?

Jane Hudson: Oh, wow. Okay. So I've worked with three different regulators and emergency services organization, I realized that I'm your regulator at heart, which sounds pretty geeky, but I thought about that. regulation is not sexy. But regulation is actually what helps make a society function and remain civil. Because it's about protecting people. So at what say, you're protecting people in the workplace, you are giving, you're creating an environment, or you're meant to be creating an environment where they can they go home at the end of their day's work. And they go home with intact. So they have all of their limbs, their fingers. So you're protecting people from from work, then I went to Environment Protection Authority, and their role is to protect the environment that's expanded now to include health at my day, it was just the environment. And again, it's about protecting the environment from the impact of industry. So when I, for people who don't come from Melbourne, it's my city. So I understand. There was a time when you could not swim in the Yarra River. It was so polluted. Air Pollution was a real problem. So it's about cleaning the environment, for nature and for the just for the sake of that's what we should do for the environment. But it's also about protecting people from toxic spills from gas explosions in landfills from contaminated land. Air pollution. So, again, there's a protection element. And I think people forget that often with regulation. There's a lot of talk about. Yeah, reducing red tide, we should get rid of regulation, What business do what it wants. And Trump has done that in America. And I don't think it's serving them very well, because what regulation does is it creates an authorizing environment for industry and business to operate because it helps to build trust with the community that this industry is behaving within certain boundaries and will not, you know, cause them right. So I went through the regulation, right, because I can do that for hours. Yep. So look at each one as being different. But I stayed in that space, because I like the fact that we were doing work that that actually that made a difference and more that was bigger than just the individual and not just focused on profit. No disrespect to the corporate world.

Nigel Rawlins: No, that's wonderful. So tell me about learning and development, then what what I mean, in the old days, it used to be just called training, you know, you had trainers, and you put together a program, but it sounds like it's a lot more a lot more involved in learning development. So if somebody's hearing this, and they're interested in getting it in learning and development, what are some of the things they should know?

Jane Hudson: But all training should lead to learning but not all learning is training. So training has a place it's, it's it's generally thought of as being quite task focused. You need to know Nigel, you need to know how to change entirely. I will train you how to do that. Do this, you do that you do the next thing. Learning is bigger than is that and it's more so it's about how do we How do we make sense of the world? How do we interpret what's happening around us? How do we communicate exercise judgment and discretion, to make decisions solve wicked problems, that's not stuff that can be trained. That's a sort of a deeper level of learning. And I don't even know how I can achieve it, it

Nigel Rawlins: sounds pretty good to me. So it's really solving the problem of how you actually do your job, maybe more productively, and at least I guess, have some standards to apply. So just don't go out there doing anything, if you've got some sort of framework for doing your job. So it does take a lot of work, to create learning and development programs, what's involved, so somebody contacts you.

Jane Hudson: The first thing really, that we did, the starting point with the learning and development of intervention Solution Program, is to really understand what is what is the problem that is happening, so often managers will come. And there's an issue that they've identified, and I need you to build me a training program for this, which is a great place to start. But we need to look at what is the problem that you're seeing the real problem? Or is it a symptom of a bigger problem? For example, if all your staff are doing their work in completely different ways, and there's no consistency, that might not be so much to do with them? Although we can educate them to how you want it done. But it's more what what process and since your organization will give them what guidance Have you told them? This is how I want everybody to do it? Or have you said, Good luck. See you at the end of the day, and everybody has individually gone on a mad scramble to do the best they can in however they think it needs to be done. So the first thing is we need to work out what the problem is. And then when that there my role is to go Okay, and understand the problem. And understanding this particular workplace and how it operates and what the constraints are. So I worked at the commission for gambling and liquor regulation. One of the constraints was we need the entire inspected workforce, we're on a 24 hour roster. So timing, how do you fit this in? How do you make it sit in their world, so it's relevant to them and accessible. So we go through a design process, it might be a combination of we're going to have some e learnings with some face to face workshops, we're going to maybe set a workplace project or something along those lines. And then it needs to be written. So we need to actually collect content or creators, workout graphics videos, you know, quotes guest speakers? How does that all come together? Look at the timing, how long have we got because you never have as long as you want. Prioritizing. So there might be working with subject matter experts. You need to be quite diplomatically, diplomatic, diplomatically, for subject matter experts with the oddity to know this and listen something else, oh, my God, and then this, and it's like, great. But to come back to the core purpose, and what do they actually need to know? versus what would you like them to so you manage that sort of crystallizing it down to this is the essence This is what we need to give them? This is how they will do it. This is the shift in behavior we're looking to achieve. This is how we measure that shift in behavior at different time intervals. So does it's it's an interesting world lmd because you're in a helicopter the whole time. So by that I mean, you're going up to survey, the overall purpose, the context that how do we approach this who's in the zoo? And then you come down to the absolute nuts and bolts? And does that full stop along here? Is this grammatically correct? Yeah. Are these images formatted appropriately, so it's the full, the full range. And it does take time. So it worries me when I see ads come up. They're saying hey, here's this new elearning design tool, and you can generate a course in four hours.

Nigel Rawlins: So tell us how long does it actually take to say do I days training program on a particular subject area?

Jane Hudson: thumb around that it's generally as a general guide for every error training, or every hour training or learning that you want Do you need to allow anything from between 28 to 45 hours of development? Right?

Nigel Rawlins: So let's go through that, again, for every area of training, you need about 40, up to 45 possible hours of doing now, and I'm assuming research and all sorts of stuffs involved in and design and editing.

Jane Hudson: Yes, yes. So it is, it does take.

Nigel Rawlins: And the interesting thing is there at the moment out there, a lot of people working from home putting together courses, they're trying to teach people. And seriously, some of those courses run for several hours, you're saying that they need hundreds of hours plus, you know, if you have a look at your experience from many, many years, over the years of all you've learned that you're bringing that to. So that's quite incredible. So anybody who just thinks, yeah, I'll just do a course on how to do digital learning or something like that. Here we go.

Jane Hudson: Yes, so it is also relative is relative to what is the purpose of the course. So if it's a general information course, you may be able to do it in less time, but you also need to think about the experience you're going to give the learner. So for example, you know, you personally, if we are just going to sit in front of a, make PowerPoint, do a recording, and then upload that and say, that's my course. Maybe that's really not a cool school lesson information session. That's knowledge sharing. But you need to have learning outcomes or objectives, you need to have something at the end that allows people to say that, have you learned something? Or did I just speak with you for four hours, and you lie or whatever it does yet. So it is fiddly and time consuming. I'm working on a course, at the moment. And it's a diploma level course. There's six modules, each module has a topic, so and I'm only one of the team, I can spend three days just editing the work the documents, the content, for that one module, one module equates to about 60,000 words,

Nigel Rawlins: and see the person who's working at home wanting to put together a course, doesn't realize they have to do that research. So you're you're getting the research, and then you're working on that research to put into them. So you see out there, I mean, I can sign up for, there's all these online learning places, I can sign up for a course. And there's some courses there that you can you can put course in one day, every day, you know, and make your fortune and some of those courses disgusting.


But, you

Nigel Rawlins: know, you might only pay $10 on Udemy. But you're going to not really well. $10 you might learn one thing.

Jane Hudson: That's that's the challenge. I think like I think it's great. If people have knowledge and expertise they want to share, then I think Go for it. And maybe go and learn a bit about how you can put a course together. So you understand a little bit about adult learning and about setting some learning outcomes and, and packaging that. So it is a course the risk also is with these different so many platforms. And it's great that there's always out there. It also means there's a lot of rubbish out there. Yeah. And that's unfortunate, because it may be that people do a course in good faith and not realize that maybe what they're learning is is not quite right. Yeah,

Nigel Rawlins: well, it's not necessarily going to learn to any better employment or even a job in many ways. Because you know, in them, and that's, I guess, the danger if we're busy today. And you sign up for course, and it's a disappointment. So you've been involved in putting together courses on how to learn and how to put programs together. Can you talk a little bit about that? What was involved there? What was that? Or did you want to talk about that?

Jane Hudson: I'm I'm happy to talk. Okay, so the best. The best way to talk about it is for some some years I was the facilitator with aitd stones to a training and development, running there one day instructional design course. So in a nutshell, to do it well, I think people need to understand some basic learning principles just how does the brain work? How do people learn the need to know how to analyze the situation which I've discussed. I don't even know if I can articulate it at this moment. Seems like it's in the doing it's wise weed once you can read a study about it, but it's actually in the doing that you learn how to do it in his courses, we tried to make it very practical, and almost like project based. So yeah, we'd say to the participants who booked in, you know, to come either with something that they're currently working on, or that they think they want to do. So you can use that as a platform to go, let's start beginning ladies and gentlemen. You know, let's start with how to pedal outside. And then what? Why are you doing this? And whatever way you design your course, ultimately, your job is to facilitate learning. If people learn what you set out to learn, then that's a good day's work. Wow. Yeah.

Nigel Rawlins: So again, more experience that's taken to this point, well, let's just change a little bit and talk about, you know, you're now working for yourself. So what's involved in that, and the business side of working for yourself? Rather than now you've got the doing, which is the work you sell? Tell me about the business side of working for yourself? What advice do you give, say, other women who might want to do this?

Jane Hudson: I think I can only reflect on the journey that I took, I think a business coach is a really good idea

was that

Jane Hudson: big because you that's a whole different skill set, you would like for me, like I might know, I do a learning and development. But until I kind of started decided I really wanted to make it. My I wanted to become self employed. So I started doing this as a side gig to my full time job. And I got myself a business coach. And I also just tried to learn as much as I could, it is a different skill set. So marketing, I mean, I have I now understand what marketing is I never knew what that was right? How do I structure the business? I kind of stumbled along with my cousin, kind of because you have commitments. So now you have legal obligations in terms of, you know, tax doing, you know, your your obligations in terms of running the business? Do you want to be a sole trader? Are you better to be a company, all those things that as an employee, you're not you're not your concern? You don't have to worry about that.


Nigel Rawlins: Exactly. That's the point about self employment, it is a business and you may have a skill that you've just been describing, that you've grown over the years that made you rather unique in your industry. But yeah, the business side of it. And that's what people have got to hear. So marketing, you talking about accounts? And your and how do you juggle all that? I mean, you've also got to do the work, you've got to, you know, get the work.

Jane Hudson: What other? Why do you use a good word? I think jungle is the word. Yeah. And I think this is now I understand when I used to hear business people, especially sole traders and small outfits like me, there's this constant tension between working on the business and in the business. So in the business is the work that you've you've got clients asking you to do I'm here I'm designing this program, I'm watching this course, whatever on the business is, is the marketing, how do you maintain a presence on social media, because social media is huge. And it's a great marketing tool, if you know you can use it. And it's time consuming. So if you want to write a blog leak, I realized that I'd write for a living. So my energy for writing my own stuff is quite low. But to generate a blog away that that's a couple of days work every week to get a long form blog. So then you got to start to think about outsourcing and, and and how do you manage that? And can you afford us and you know, and then suddenly, every quarter rolls around in your hands and sending you a reminder saying, you got to submit your business activity. So Oh, man, do I get that done? So it's, it's juggling, and then it systems, putting systems in place to help you get more streamlined. So

Nigel Rawlins: yeah. Do you find that you've got control over your time or do you have busy times and then you get some control or has has, how does the the amount of work you get working with your life? Do you get some time to yourself?

Jane Hudson: Okay, that's a great question. I intend to. I intend to get time but in all fairness, The other way I look at it means I, I wanted this, huh? I wanted this. So am I. And I'm not work shy. I like to be I'm not worried. Sure. Am I got the balance, right? No rely events eventually? Would I go back to becoming an employee? Again? Not in a million years? Good. It served its purpose. And I was very happy when I did it. But But no. So then it comes down. This is an issue? Well, I think it's interesting. It comes down to confidence. competence in an impermanent world, which is what you are when you run your own business. So if work doesn't come in, like, you have to play as many games with yourself, the client says, It's okay, something will come, you will not starve, you will not lose the house, you will not end up on the streets. So that sort of self talk is really important, because you can spiral down into, oh my god, it's 12 hours since the phone rang, and I'm a complete failure. And then it's about how much what kind of work you want to take home. And where's the price point? So one of the things and I'm doing a job now, which, technically, I probably should not have taken them, but I wanted to because they all mentor interesting with interesting people. So not all geeks will pay the same and not all will be fantastic patrons. But nevertheless, if you're doing interesting work with interesting people, and remaining self employed, and paying the bills, that's not too bad. No.

Nigel Rawlins: Sounds good to me. So how long do you expect to be doing this? I mean, you're looking at retirement at some stage, or do you think you can keep working till someone? When you get a quick

Jane Hudson: ride, I don't think I'm built to retire. I may dial it down a bit, you know, as time moves on, but to be honest, when you said so you know, how how long would you do this for? The only thing I could think of which might be inappropriate? You can cut this out if you want feet first, right? Yeah. Right. Cuz What else you got to do. And if you can craft a lifestyle where you can bring it down to him, it is more part time work, and you're getting the interesting work in line. And you built some space to do other things. I don't know, I look at people like sir john Gielgud, the actor, the English actor, who the story was a story going around that even at the age of 91, he was raising his agent or rating him for not getting jobs. Yes.

Nigel Rawlins: And there you go. We can do this, too. We can't do it anymore. And I think that's that's a really good answer that, you know, whilst you're enjoying the work, maybe you're in your 80s, you might say, well, I can't concentrate for long hours. But I can work for this this bug because I've got other things. And you may find that there's all other commitments you've got, as we get older. I remember when my parents retired, I had to make an appointment to see them. They were so busy. So yeah, I think that's a great answer. Well, is there anything else that we haven't covered that you'd like to say? That you can think of?

Jane Hudson: No, I think the only thing because this is around like they're moving to self employment as much as any time it takes time. A wise man once said to me, allow a few years for this and it's really very true. And it so goes back to that I'll do in the rock'n'roll industry and in the booming us industry people chart that. Oh, yeah. It took me 10 years to become an overnight sensation. So it is about having a plan. And understanding these things will take time. And I I'm happy I started as a side shot when I was working even more. But if the work is taking in the direction you want to go in that's okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nigel Rawlins: That's a great answer. Okay, so what sort of work are you seeking to people get in contact with you?

Jane Hudson: I think this chick here is that I I really love with one Straight out lenses on. So if people work for organizations, and they have an idea for a cause or a need, and they need some help in that area in terms of designing it, and creating it, something really works, then that's sort of what I'm doing most of my time. But the other thing that I really want to do more of I was doing a few years ago, and I want to come back to it is I just really liked helping people on their journey. So coaching, facilitating, helping people to understand themselves, their drivers, why they behave the way they do, so that they have a better opportunity to create more positive workplace relationships. Because I think, at the end of the day, most of us spend an awful lot of time at work, and we don't go to work to have a crap time. So how do we exercise our agency to improve ourselves and to also manage the impact on other people? So that sort of coaching and facilitating self development space is the other area that I really have a keen passion for?

Excellent.

Jane Hudson
Okay, so you have a website, and I do what Jay bass learning.com.au and the bass, double bass, the J, because that's my first name and the learning house. That's my thing.

Nigel Rawlins: Yeah. Now we'll put this in the show notes. So people didn't get it. There'll be there. They can find you on LinkedIn. Yes, just look for Jane Hudson, Jane Hudson on LinkedIn. And I think you're on Twitter as well. Yeah.

Jane Hudson: Yeah, they want to there might their best two social media platforms. Right. So that's where you'll find Jane.

Nigel Rawlins: Well, Jane, this has been a wonderful conversation. So thank you very much for telling us everything. And I'm hoping people get some inspiration for this, not just about self employment, but learning and development as well. Thank you.

Jane Hudson: Thanks so much, Nigel. All right.

Nigel Rawlins: That's the end of that. I'll turn up the recording.

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